quote:

Originally posted by LegalAcidity:
No, Iraq isn't stable now. If we were to pull out, then I'm sure that it would get much, much worse. I think that the world would see a horrible genocide, with the majority Shiites basically exterminating the Sunni minority. It wouldn't be pretty, that's for sure.

The thing is, this will probably happen no matter when we leave, and we will eventually leave, in a 5 months or 5 years or 10 years, eventually we will go home and there will almost certainly be a bloodbath as old scores are settled once again.

The only question, then, is which decision protects the lives of Americans best? Leave now or leave in 10 years (or whenever). Every day we stay means more Americans die. Personally, I'm for the choice that means fewer of our own people get killed.

I feel sorry for the Iraqis in that we screwed up their country and made a stable, secular place into an unstable country lurching toward a ethnically cleansed theocracy, but a lot of that is on them. They could choose a different path if they wanted to. Our presence there doesn't solve anything, in fact, it makes things worse.

So we pull out and then what? Osama Bin Laden, Mookie Al Sadr, and the rest of the Islamofascists give us all a group hug and sing "Koombayah"? Some of you refuse to believe that the Islamofascists are committed to destroying the US, Europe, and pretty much all of civilization as we know it. They are not going to stop until they are defeated. Does anyone on this Forum believe deep down that Bin Laden and others would choose not to nuke NYC or DC if they had the means? Or would they choose not to set off at dirty bomb at Bryant-Denny? Or that they would hesitate to lop off your head on video to make a statement?

quote:

Originally posted by voltrontide:
another 500 dead? 5,000? 50,000?

Im getting sick of these soldiers of ours dying in Iraq.. Damn I hate this s**t!

Dude, get off your liberal high horse and support a JUST cause for a change....

quote:

Originally posted by Hedduk:
So we pull out and then what? Osama Bin Laden, Mookie Al Sadr, and the rest of the Islamofascists give us all a group hug and sing "Koombayah"? Some of you refuse to believe that the Islamofascists are committed to destroying the US, Europe, and pretty much all of civilization as we know it. They are not going to stop until they are defeated. Does anyone on this Forum believe deep down that Bin Laden and others would choose not to nuke NYC or DC if they had the means? Or would they choose not to set off at dirty bomb at Bryant-Denny? Or that they would hesitate to lop off your head on video to make a statement?

Islamo-fascist is a made-up word and you used it twice in your 5 line post.

You could just hide under your bed from the Islamo-fascists out to get you. That'd probably be more effecient than the WoT and the debacle in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by groove_thing:

quote:

Originally posted by Hedduk:
So we pull out and then what? Osama Bin Laden, Mookie Al Sadr, and the rest of the Islamofascists give us all a group hug and sing "Koombayah"? Some of you refuse to believe that the Islamofascists are committed to destroying the US, Europe, and pretty much all of civilization as we know it. They are not going to stop until they are defeated. Does anyone on this Forum believe deep down that Bin Laden and others would choose not to nuke NYC or DC if they had the means? Or would they choose not to set off at dirty bomb at Bryant-Denny? Or that they would hesitate to lop off your head on video to make a statement?

Islamo-fascist is a made-up word and you used it twice in your 5 line post.

You could just hide under your bed from the Islamo-fascists out to get you. That'd probably be more effecient than the WoT and the debacle in Iraq.

Groove, you normally make a pretty good argument for your point of view and while I agree that "Islamo-fascist" is a made up word, do you honestly think that there are not Islamic Terrorists out to do nothing more than kill Americans - including you and me?

Groove, Islamofascist may be a made up word but I didn't make it up and it is in common use in the media. I don't plan to hide under my bed although that appears to be the only plan you and your supporters have to offer. And, you didn't answer any of the questions I offered so I will simplify for you and just make it one. Do you believe that Islamofascists (made-up-word) would set off a dirty bomb at a sold out Bryant-Denny Stadium if they had the opportunity?

So Hedduk - how does the war in Iraq help us stop your "islamofacists"? The war in Iraq is not the war on terror- they are two separate things. The people we are killing in Iraq are Iraqi citizens that hate us, not because they are terrorists but because we're occupying their company. We are not uncovering new terror cells. Sure, we may catch one guy every couple of months, but they're of no consequence because we're not getting the big fish. This war should be fought with intelligence and special forces. A major military operation is not helping us at all. The next time you wanna talk about your "Islamofacists" just recognize that Iraq has little to nothing to do with them.

And mullet-don't try that "you're a liberal, you don't believe in america or God" bs by posting about supporting a "JUST" cause. That's a load of **** and everyone knows it. When someone can't argue a point they always revert to "well, you're a liberal- you hate america-and freedom-because you don't support our "just" cause.

quote:

Originally posted by majthor:
Groove, you normally make a pretty good argument for your point of view and while I agree that "Islamo-fascist" is a made up word, do you honestly think that there are not Islamic Terrorists out to do nothing more than kill Americans - including you and me?

Why do you think these Islamists want to kill Americans?

I think part of the reason they want to kill us is because we're over there.

I do think we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with regard to Afghanistan and our diversion into Iraq but there's no use crying over spilled milk and we should take the logical step that minimizes the chances that Americans will continue to die for a catastrophic mistake in Iraq.

The problem is we started a war on a tactic. "Terror" is not an enemy; It's a tactic. We just opened up a huge ass can of worms over there and there is no right answer anymore. Nothing we do or don't do will end up resulting in a good outcome. If we stay then we are in the middle of a civil war and a lot of our kids die. If we leave then Osama gets a new play area. We are screwed either way.

quote:

Originally posted by Hedduk:
Groove, Islamofascist may be a made up word but I didn't make it up and it is in common use in the media. I don't plan to hide under my bed although that appears to be the only plan you and your supporters have to offer. And, you didn't answer any of the questions I offered so I will simplify for you and just make it one. Do you believe that Islamofascists (made-up-word) would set off a dirty bomb at a sold out Bryant-Denny Stadium if they had the opportunity?

So, the short answer is that you want American soldiers to continue to die because you're afraid that the boogeyman, I mean islamo-fascists, will set off a dirty bomb, whatever that is.

You do know that a dirty bomb is also a made up device that's designed to gin up fear in people like you, right?

I would rather risk a dirty bomb because I know that the risks posed by a dirty bomb are almost non-existant. I'd prefer to risk being struck by lightning or being killed by bee stings or being eaten by a shark too and those are about as likely as me or anyone in America being killed by a dirty bomb.

Let's review, how many people in the history of the world have been killed by a dirty bomb? Ummmm, would that be zero? Hmm, so it seems that the real risk of Americans being killed by roadside bombs in Iraq ought to outweigh my irrational fear of being killed by beestings or by a lightning strike or by a dirty bomb in Bryant-Denny stadium, right?

quote:

Originally posted by sunchief32:
The problem is we started a war on a tactic. "Terror" is not an enemy; It's a tactic.

Well, you know, World War 2, better known as the War on Sneak Attacks, went pretty well, didn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by groove_thing:

quote:

Originally posted by majthor:
Groove, you normally make a pretty good argument for your point of view and while I agree that "Islamo-fascist" is a made up word, do you honestly think that there are not Islamic Terrorists out to do nothing more than kill Americans - including you and me?

Why do you think these Islamists want to kill Americans?

I think part of the reason they want to kill us is because we're over there.

I do think we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with regard to Afghanistan and our diversion into Iraq but there's no use crying over spilled milk and we should take the logical step that minimizes the chances that Americans will continue to die for a catastrophic mistake in Iraq.

Iraq is a mess, I will give you that one. I am not saying that I feel that pulling out is the right thing - just that it is definitely a mess.

However, for you to say that they want to kill Americans because we are "over there" is like saying that 9/11 was our fault. I really hope that is not what you are saying?

They want to kill us because of who we are and what we stand for. Our support for Israel and presence in the middle east is rolled up into that. Should we stop supporting Israel, pull out entirely from the middle east, etc, etc, etc? How about we re-write the Constitution and establish Islam as the "state" religion?

cal311, Iraq is the front line of the war on terror. Al Qaeda is there and is behind much of the terrorist activity. The terrorists are killing Iraqi citizens to foment sectarian violence and totally destablize the country.

If you notice, Bin Laden, Al-Sadr, Ahmanutjob, and the rest of the leaders all have the same goals- destroy the US and convert the world to Islam. If we quit in Iraq, does it encourage or discourage these folks?

quote:

Originally posted by majthor:
However, for you to say that they want to kill Americans because we are "over there" is like saying that 9/11 was our fault. I really hope that is not what you are saying?

I don't think it's saying that 9-11 was our fault. I just don't buy the pat answer that bin Laden and his crew hates us because we're free and all that. I think he and people like him have specific agendas and those come from specific grievances against who they see as the "far enemy" which is us. I think it would serve us better to really try to understand this motivation rather than to fall back on something like jingoism and say "islamofascists hate us because we're free" or stuff like that.

I do think that the US presence in Iraq is stirring up anti-American feeling in the mideast and that ill will more than offsets any possible good that can be accomplished there. I think the Iraq invasion has set us back years in the midEast and the rest of the world.

Islamic terrorists didn't just wake up one day and say "I really hate America" and decide to kill us. Their hatred of us comes from somewhere and it's not just that we're free. I think trying to understand it can help us change the dynamic that drives them to kill themselves so they can kill us.

quote:

They want to kill us because of who we are and what we stand for. Our support for Israel and presence in the middle east is rolled up into that. Should we stop supporting Israel, pull out entirely from the middle east, etc, etc, etc? How about we re-write the Constitution and establish Islam as the "state" religion?

No, we shouldn't stop supporting Israel. But we should also really support democratic movements in Islamic countries, like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan instead of blindly supporting the strongmen who run those places because they're our "friends."

I don't believe that Islamic people hate us for who we are. I think the terrorists hate us for what they think we stand for and for what they see us as having supported in their lands for so long. Just falling back on the "they hate us because we're free" rhetoric only ensures that we'll continue to make the same mistakes there.

The people who are killing Americans in Iraq, though, hate Americans because we're there.

What happens in Iraq is incosequential in the war on terror. They're going to want to kill us either way - whether we're there, or not. Iraq is not the front line-there are more terrorists in Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran, etc...Iraq is pretty far down the list.

The terrorists are attempting to destabilize the country-the effort to destabilize is being led by the citizenry that hates each other.