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My arguement is that we don't have the authority take a life unless God has given us that authority.

WOW!!! ops we have talked about religion before and I can't believe you said this. Isn't this the samt thing that the muslim extremist say??? And don't we westerners say they are barbaric in their philosophy?? So by this logic bombing abortion clinics is OK as long as the individual got the thumbs up from god first???

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Originally posted by fred sanford:

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And in Abraham's story, Issac didn't die. God provided a substitute.

But now your getting into a grey area here because Abraham didn't know that Isacc would be spaired. He just believed he was the first man to talk to god and "go offer your son as a burnt sacrifice" is what god had to say to him. Also how bout the old testament story in Judges 11:30-39 where Jephthah sacrifices his daughter to god??? No one remembers or mentions this because most christians don't read the old testament but he killed/sacrificed his daughter because god let him win a battle.

The point is that God's command was to test Abraham's devotion by commanding him to give up his most precious earthly item, his son. Once Abraham had proved is devotion, God spared the son. The situation in Judges is a little different. God didn't command Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter, but Jephthah offered something up (he said the first thing that came out of his house to greet him upon his return he would devote to God and offer as a burnt sacrifice) in exchange for military victory. Some scholars also believe that the and should be translated "or," meaning that he would devote that something to God "or" offer as a burnt sacrifice, depending on if it was a human or animal. They think that the vow was to commit his daughter to a lifetime of celibacy in service of God, and that is why such a big deal was made about her virginity. If that is the case, then she was not sacrificed.

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Originally posted by fred sanford:

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My arguement is that we don't have the authority take a life unless God has given us that authority.

WOW!!! ops we have talked about religion before and I can't believe you said this. Isn't this the samt thing that the muslim extremist say??? And don't we westerners say they are barbaric in their philosophy?? So by this logic bombing abortion clinics is OK as long as the individual got the thumbs up from god first???

Haha, I shocked you huh? Well, a little background. One, that authority has to be commuted in God's word, not some external revelation. Two, the Bible is God's word. This excludes Muslim extremists because they do this according to the teachings of the Koran, not the Bible. And two, if you can show me in the Bible where bombing an abortion clinic is approved by God, then I'd agree that the abortion clinic bombings are ok. Problem is, your aren't going to find it and "God told me" isn't adequate in this time.

Romans 13 gives government the right to do capitol punishment and wage war. God commuted that authority to civil government, not to individuals.

First I just want say, because it's where my parents got my name, it's spelled Isaac. Secondly being I was named after Isaac, that bible story scared the crap out of me whem I was young.

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Originally posted by OpsCon:

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Originally posted by fred sanford:

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My arguement is that we don't have the authority take a life unless God has given us that authority.

WOW!!! ops we have talked about religion before and I can't believe you said this. Isn't this the samt thing that the muslim extremist say??? And don't we westerners say they are barbaric in their philosophy?? So by this logic bombing abortion clinics is OK as long as the individual got the thumbs up from god first???

Haha, I shocked you huh? Well, a little background. One, that authority has to be commuted in God's word, not some external revelation. Two, the Bible is God's word. This excludes Muslim extremists because they do this according to the teachings of the Koran, not the Bible. And two, if you can show me in the Bible where bombing an abortion clinic is approved by God, then I'd agree that the abortion clinic bombings are ok. Problem is, your aren't going to find it and "God told me" isn't adequate in this time.

Romans 13 gives government the right to do capitol punishment and wage war. God commuted that authority to civil government, not to individuals.

Yeah, but to them, the Koran is the word of God. If you switched positions on this and we were all talking as Muslims, then you would say "This excludes Christians because they do this according to the teachings of the Bible, not the Koran".

Thats true. I operate under the premise that Christianity is right and Islam is wrong.

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First I just want say, because it's where my parents got my name, it's spelled Isaac. Secondly being I was named after Isaac, that bible story scared the crap out of me whem I was young.

Just stay away if your dad asks you if you want to help him with the grill.

I don't think I'd sacrifice my cat if "god" told me to. Not unless god showed up in the living room while my wife and I were watching tv and not unless I could look at my wife and say "did you see that?" and she said "yes. where's the cat?"

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And two, if you can show me in the Bible where bombing an abortion clinic is approved by God, then I'd agree that the abortion clinic bombings are ok. Problem is, your aren't going to find it and "God told me" isn't adequate in this time.

But who's to say that the people that bomb abortion clinics aren't correct in their devotion to god as Abraham? The bible calls Abraham a rightous man for attempting to murder his son. Just because he didn't carryout the task doesn't god wanting you to kill anyone for any reason appear wrong?? Just because god knew he was going to stop it doesn't mean that it should have even been offered if god is a loving god that wants the best for us. How does attempted murder for god make anyone a better person?

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I don't think I'd sacrifice my cat if "god" told me to. Not unless god showed up in the living room while my wife and I were watching tv and not unless I could look at my wife and say "did you see that?" and she said "yes. where's the cat?"

But that gets into the part where jesus calls the religious leaders a brood of vipers I believe for wanting him to give them a sign or miricle and he refused. However he went around performing miricles for the sick, blind and dead and even appeared before 500 after his reserection. He even let thomas put his hand in his side because he couldn't believe it was jesus but he toungue lashes the religious folks for the same thing.

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Just because god knew he was going to stop it doesn't mean that it should have even been offered if god is a loving god that wants the best for us. How does attempted murder for god make anyone a better person

The Bible calls Abraham a righteous man because he was devoted to God above all else, including his family. This isn't a unique perspective, Jesus frequently taught that devotion to God is above that to your family. There is nothing Biblical supporting people bombing abortion clinics. The only reason that Abraham didn't sacrifice Issac is because God stopped him. It wasn't that God didn't know that Abraham wouldn't do it, God never had any intention of letting Abraham does it.

Keep in mind, you are dealing with two different periods in history. In Abraham's time period, the only way God communicated was verbally to certain people. The Bible didn't exist as God's word. God doesn't communicate that way any more because we have the Bible to know God's plan for our lives and His will regarding issues.

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The Bible didn't exist as God's word. God doesn't communicate that way any more because we have the Bible to know God's plan for our lives and His will regarding issues.

If that's true then god should have communicated the same way throughout the new testament as well since the bible wasn't even started until after 325 C.E. when Constintine organized the christian faith under the Nicaean creed. True they passed the different letters around to different churches but also they passed around many of the apocrypha as did gnostic sects of judism such as the essenes who wrote the dead see scrolls.

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Originally posted by fred sanford:

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The Bible didn't exist as God's word. God doesn't communicate that way any more because we have the Bible to know God's plan for our lives and His will regarding issues.

If that's true then god should have communicated the same way throughout the new testament as well since the bible wasn't even started until after 325 C.E. when Constintine organized the christian faith under the Nicaean creed. True they passed the different letters around to different churches but also they passed around many of the apocrypha as did gnostic sects of judism such as the essenes who wrote the dead see scrolls.

Why should God have communicated the same way in the New Testament? Everything changed. With Jesus walking on earth, God could communicate fact to face. After he left, those that Christ prepared carried on his teaching and setting up the church. That teaching continued on in both letters and by word of mouth until the Bible was organized. Then, like now, the church had to weed out the legitimate teachings from the bad. Back then it was the gnostics, now its the Koran, Kabbalah, etc.

In the OT, men had to approach God through priests and sacrifice. In the NT, the door had opened to each and every man to have an individual relationship with God. Man could now individually study God's Word as a part of that relationship. The Holy Spirit was available as a daily counselor not to provide audible guidance, but aid in prayer and the interpretation of Scripture (also not available during the OT). The entire world changed, the relationship dynamic between Creator and creation was different in the NT (after Jesus). Maybe that's why the communication changed between OT and NT. Don't know why he did it, just know that he did.

Not that it adds anything to the discussion, BUT, Abraham believed God - that is why God declared him "righteous" (see Romans 4:3). Second, Abraham knew that Isaac was the fulfillment of God's promise to him, and therefore believed that if he sacrificed Isaac, God would raise him from the dead (see Hebrews 11:17-19).

Under New Testament law and that radical Sermon on the Mount ( ), shouldn't we never fight back, and always turn the other cheek?

That's why I don't think God would actually command anyone to kill anyone now. It seems inconsistent, at least to me