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TideSports Forums Forums TideSports TideSports general forum Butch Davis/Nick L. Saban vs. Larry Coker/Lester Miles--Builders vs. Inheritors
TideSports Forums Forums TideSports TideSports general forum Butch Davis/Nick L. Saban vs. Larry Coker/Lester Miles--Builders vs. Inheritors|
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Five-star prospect |
yea after 5 indiscretions that should have gotton hiom kicked off long ago
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Five-star prospect |
Are you aware of LSU's record the decade before Saban? In case you aren't, Ole Miss would find that record embarrassing. LSU was a homecoming opponent before Saban came along and rescued your program. We could debate this all day long, but since I am reasonable I will concede that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. |
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Hall of Famer |
"The same things win that always won. And we just have a different bunch of excuses if we lose."--Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant |
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Freshman |
Sabans "good" record at Mich St. 1995 Michigan State 6-5-1 1996 Michigan State 6-6 1997 Michigan State 7-5 1998 Michigan State 6-6 1999 Michigan State 9-2 Total 35-24-1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LSU's "horrible" record before Saban under Dinardo 1995 LSU 7-4-1 1996 LSU 10-2 1997 LSU 9-3 1998 LSU 4-7 1999 LSU 3-8 Total 33-24-1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The difference in expectations between Mich St. and LSU are obvious. However the perception of Sabans "good" job in green and white is somewhat odd considering everyones perception of the "terrible" mess the LSU program was in under Dinardo. CNS and CGD both had the same amount of losses in the same time frame. Dinardo went to 3 bowl games and won them all (3-0). Saban coached 3 bowl games and lost them all (0-3). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dinardo Bowl games 1995 vs Michigan St W 45-26 1996 vs Clemson W 10-7 1997 vs Notre Dame W 27-9 (Average points per win = 13.3) Saban Bowl games (Mich St) 1995 vs LSU L 26-45 1996 vs Stanford L 0-38 1997 vs Washington L 23-51 (Average points per loss = 28.3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Although Dinardo's tenure at LSU was unacceptable by our standards, it was better than Sabans tenure at Michigan St (In their totality). If LSU was so horrible, what does that say about the job Saban did for the Spartans? Every bowl game he coached there he lost by double digits. Saban had only 1 good year there in five seasons. |
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Hall of Famer |
"The same things win that always won. And we just have a different bunch of excuses if we lose."--Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant |
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Heisman hopeful Graduated 1973- BA in Political Science. AFROTC commission-retired 1993. A "jammer" since 1951! |
The hysteria and denials continues on the topic of the historical records of coaches inheriting well establshed football programs. For LSU it will continue for the next 3 to 4 years when history will reveal the true ability of Les Miles. Everything else is irrelevant...Miles will be known by "his" record, so quoting what Coach Saban did at Mich State is irrelevant because Saban's past at Mich State has nothing to do with what Miles has or will do...it just makes some people feel better about what they have to face and the fear they have in facing it.
There are two facts that are set in stone and you can not honestly deny. Nick Saban rebuilt and put in place a nationally competitive football program...one that won a National Championship after years of mediocre results. When he left LSU, that program was fully functional with talent, established recruiting networks, and was inherited by Les Miles...it was not in decay nor was it in shambles...it did not need to be rebuilt, just maintained. Face it, once any coach rebuilds a football program they only thing they have to do is just keep it going because all the heavy lifting has been done. That isn't a slam, it is just common sense and honestly acknowledging facts. Now is when the conjecture and debate begins. The Saban recruits have gone from LSU, so Miles's coaching ability is no longer affected by the shadow of Nick Saban...now the program is truly a Les Miles production. Can Miles maintain or not? That is the question which a lot of people will be awaiting the answer. That answer holds a lot of fear for the LSU fans, because if he does not maintain what he inherited, they could once again return to the ranks of the mediocre...that scares them and drives their new found hatred in Nick Saban...a man that never did them any harm except win them a National Championship and leave them a well established championship calibre football program. That fear is what will drive the hysteria and denials for the next few years. "What goes around, comes around." |
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Five-star prospect |
Yet he still made LSU what they are today. Can you admit this or not? I have not been hurling unfounded praise at Saban; I don't know who you are even arguing with. His legacy has yet to be determined. If he does not win at Bama he will go down as just an average coach, although I can't remember many coaches who are considered average that guided such a dramatic turn around from conference loser to national contender in such a short amount of time. Maybe I’m forgetting someone. Anyway, all I'm saying is he made LSU what they are today. For an LSU fan to deny this fact shows deep insecurities about this man and an inability to grasp reality. This is ironic, as the later fault is one that LSU fans so commonly accuse Bama fans of suffering from. |
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Freshman |
Saban gets credit for turning LSU into consistant winners. Most will admit LSU is probably one of the best programs to rebuild and coach in the country given its location in recruiting and lack of in-state rivalries. Almost every coach that comes to LSU has had more success there than anywhere else they've coached. Even bad coaches like Dinardo can recruit well and finish ranked in the top 15 two consecutive years. Saban may have rebuilt LSU as far as consistent winning is concerned, but what lacked prior to his arrival (the missing ingrediant) was coaching not talent. It wasnt this massive overhaul like most here are suggesting. The talent was there as proof by Saban going to the SECC his 2nd year. He inherited 22 players that would go on to sign NFL contracts. Thats not including some 1st and 2nd team All SEC players. Its true, Miles inherited a great program. So what? Butch Davis who is lauded here inherited an even more successful one at Miami. Davis can no more be considered a "builder" than CLM. These comparisons are slight of hand insults of both reason and fact. Saying that because Miles has continued (even improved) upon the success he inherited, that it means he is a Larry Coker is ridiculous. Thats like me proclaiming Saban will be a bust at Alabama because there are some parallels between him and Spurrier.
Doth protest too much...... What exactly have I denied? I never said Saban didnt improve LSU's program. Do you make up this stuff as you go along just so it can conform to an arguement? |
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Five-star prospect |
This was a reasonable post, and I cannot completely reject the “missing ingredient” argument, although I do not understand why no coach in recent memory prior to Saban was successful to any degree at LSU. This isn’t really relevant to this debate, but I would like to point out that Bama is pretty easy to win at as well when we have a remotely competent coach. We won an SEC Championship with Mike Dubose for god’s sake, beating a Spurrier coached FL team twice, once in Gainesville and then in Atlanta. While there is another major program in our state; when things are right in the football world, we get at least 80% of the kids we want, and fill out the class with a handful of out-of-state stars. Last year, Auburn went 0-15 on in state kids when they went head to head against Bama. An AU fan would even admit they have to go to GA and FL for their recruiting base. In other words, talent should not be a problem at Alabama with a decent recruiter. The rest of your post is addressing an argument that I have already clearly rejected on this thread; that we can assume that Miles is like Larry Coker given some superficial similarities in their respective careers. If you go to the first page of this thread, about five posts down you will see me disagreeing with the topic poster, and even giving praise to the job Miles has done thus far. This is not to say I think Miles is going to go down as one of the greats. I don’t, but that is just my opinion. We will obviously have to wait a few years to begin to see both Miles’ and Saban’s legacies shape up. Finally, I do not alter people’s words to prove my point. Do you? I took your lengthy post diminishing his MSU career as you arguing that he was not a good coach and, thus, did not really do anything to improve LSU’s program, as that is certainly the argument 5straight was making. Just as you apparently misinterpreted my argument as one admonishing all things Miles, I misinterpreted your argument as one of the many from your brethren that undermine everything Saban did to restore your program to its current state of glory. It's all just words and conjecture right now. It must be the offseason. |
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All-SEC |
Do you think Miles' decision at the end of the Auburn game was "good coaching"? |
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Walk-on |
They had another down if the pass was incomplete.It was thrown where only a LSU receiver could possibly get to it.
Why the hate? |
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Five-star prospect |
Miles seems to have a good feel for the flow of the game during the game. He knows his players and seems to trust them (having a back like Hester made those 4th down decisions a little easier to make). Those "bad coaching" decisions are what put them in a position to make it to the NC game, and ultimately winning the NC. It's hard to knock success, in fact it just comes off looking silly.
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Five-star prospect |
Nice post, good to see a Bama fan give some credit to Miles. To answer your first question, no coach was really successfull until Saban at LSU is because LSU's AD at the time went cheap on our coaches. He would hire coaches who did well at mediocre schools, or coaches who were underqualified and hoped they flourished with LSU. (Mike Archer, Curley Hallman, Gerry Dinardo). I do give Dinardo some credit for building LSU, we started to have some success recruiting under him, but Saban took it even further. The biggest thing Saban did for LSU was to establish a trend for top Louisiana athletes to stay in Louisiana. Whether or not some Bama fans want to accept it, Miles has been doing just as well, if not better, then Saban when it comes to recruiting. I have no doubt Saban will make Bama more competivie, but to say Miles is going to be mediocre now just because "Saban's recruits" are gone is just moronic. Miles recruits are just as good. |
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Five-star prospect |
Yes. There was still time left on the clock even after he caught it, I don't see why that call is criticized. Even your genius coach said it was a good call. |
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